Curse

UnChosen · Jul 14, 2009, 09:05 AM // 09:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Why are you arguing against something when I said you misunderstood my statement? I never meant for you to take entire clear that literally, I'm sorry you misunderstood. You're the one misunderstanding my statement and spinning it. Generally when people say clear UW/FoW/DoA, they mean they did the required quests. Killing every single moster is pointless and a waste of time. Yes, it's a sin and an ele. I'm so sorry that I was wrong about that, not that it makes any difference.

Bottom line is, the fact that two assassins/an assassin and an ele/possibly 2 eles can duo all the quests in that amount of time is dumb, and shows why SF needs to be nerfed.

Bottom line is, the fact that two assassins or eles can duo all the quests in that amount of time is a coincidence of game design, because there are no other place where multiple sin can clear much faster than a decent normal build, and shows why only Underworld and/or Fow needs to be nerfed/adjusted, not the skill.

Arkantos · Jul 14, 2009, 09:10 AM // 09:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Bottom line is, the fact that two assassins or eles can duo all the quests in that amount of time is a coincidence of game design, because there are no other place where multiple sin can clear much faster than a decent normal build, and shows why only Underworld and/or Fow needs to be nerfed/adjusted, not the skill.

As I said, the fact that this skill makes you invincible against the majority of enemies in the game makes it more than worthy for a nerf. It doesn't belong in the game. Yes, UW/FoW are designed quite poorly, but this skill is still majorly overpowered.

arcanemacabre · Jul 14, 2009, 09:24 AM // 09:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Bottom line is, the fact that two assassins or eles can duo all the quests in that amount of time is a coincidence of game design, because there are no other place where multiple sin can clear much faster than a decent normal build, and shows why only Underworld and/or Fow needs to be nerfed/adjusted, not the skill.

This I can agree with. I mean, SF isn't necessarily too OP of a skill, except for the fact that there aren't enough counters to it. So, to balance it in PvE, add the counters. If that's too much work, then sorry guys, the skill's got to be nerfed.

Also: Wow, UW HM solo in 1:14 is some insane bizness...

Also, also: Manitoba is never wrong. Fo' realz.

lub yous, Manitoba! *waves*

Arkantos · Jul 14, 2009, 09:27 AM // 09:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

This I can agree with. I mean, SF isn't necessarily too OP of a skill, except for the fact that there aren't enough counters to it. So, to balance it in PvE, add the counters. If that's too much work, then sorry guys, the skill's got to be nerfed.

Also: Wow, UW HM solo in 1:14 is some insane bizness...

Also, also: Manitoba is never wrong. Fo' realz.

lub yous, Manitoba! *waves*

So what you're telling me is a skill that makes you invincible to pretty much every enemy in the game isn't overpowered? I really don't understand how people think the skill is perfectly fine. Here's a better description:

Elite enchantment spell. For 5...18...21 seconds, you're invincible to all but a handful of enemies that aren't in the area you're farming. You deal 33% less damage. When Shadow Form ends, lose all but 5...41...50 Health, but this doesn't matter because you're maintaining it anyways.

There really isn't any way to add a counter to it for every area it's dominant in (read: every elite area). What do you expect ANet to do, add in massive PBAoE and well of the profane to each elite area? It's not going to happen.

Shanaeri Rynale · Jul 14, 2009, 09:33 AM // 09:33

Arkantos's point about SF underlines the point I was trying to make. Some people want to get rid of the zap, pow splat parts of PvE and return to some semblance of balance, Anet has chosen(by adding cons sets, pve skills, not re-skilling mobs and OP skills) to create a zap-pow-splat PvE game.

In a balanced, pre Gwen/Nightfall world Anet would never had let SF etc be this abused. Now it seems that, by and large they are happy for people to play the game as a shoot em up.

It's like after the earlier parts of Nightfall they just gave up and are letting things, Pve balance and gameplay wise gently wind down.
Maybe it's us the ones want rid of godmodes that are out of date..

UnChosen · Jul 14, 2009, 09:35 AM // 09:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

As I said, the fact that this skill makes you invincible against the majority of enemies in the game makes it more than worthy for a nerf. It doesn't belong in the game. Yes, UW/FoW are designed quite poorly, but this skill is still majorly overpowered.

So? Being invincible doesn't really mean much unless there's something else to go with it. Its the same idea as the whole tank sucks because they don't do decent damage argument. With perma, you have 3 skill slots taken up just to maintain shadow form.

Since perma have barely any attribute points left because of 16 shadow art, the perma can't have effective dagger damage.

The other option is instead of dagger, the perma pour all the remaining points into fire magic. Guess what? since fire spells are damn expensive, the perma has to have multiple decent energy management skills in the form of glyph of lesser energy + fire attunement, which takes up another two more skill slot. This leaves the perma with only 3 skill slots to fill out with damage skills.

At the end the perma only becomes a super tank with extremely sub par damage. Without high damage the build can really only be used for solo farm, tanking, or niche boss runs. All of which are either done by other classes effectively also, or just ain't that useful.

Arkantos · Jul 14, 2009, 09:38 AM // 09:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shanaeri Rynale

Arkantos's point about SF underlines the point I was trying to make. Some people want to get rid of the zap, pow splat parts of PvE and return to some semblance of balance, Anet has chosen(by adding cons sets, pve skills, not re-skilling mobs and OP skills) to create a zap-pow-splat PvE game.

In a balanced, pre Gwen/Nightfall world Anet would never had let SF etc be this abused. Now it seems that, by and large they are happy for people to play the game as a shoot em up. Maybe it's us the ones want rid of godmodes that are out of date..

Honestly, I have no problem with overpowered builds in PvE. There always going to be there. The problem is, shadow form is just ridiculous. You're invincible. Get rid of it, and I really don't care too much about the other skills.

Sure, you could say we're out of date, but so is ANet then. They've already shown that they don;t exactly approve of what's going on by somewhat nerfing CoP. They've also said they dislike speedclears, and are looking at skills associated with it (read: shadow form).

It's simple. Get rid of shadow form, and get rid of speed clears. You still have a bunch of overpowered builds, you just can't clear elite areas in under half an hour, which is retarded anyways.

Quote:

So? Being invincible doesn't really mean much unless there's something else to go with it. Its the same idea as the whole tank sucks because they don't do decent damage argument. With perma, you have 3 skill slots taken up just to maintain shadow form.

Since perma have barely any attribute points left because of 16 shadow art, the perma can't have effective dagger damage.

The other option is instead of dagger, the perma pour all the remaining points into fire magic. Guess what? since fire spells are damn expensive, the perma has to have multiple decent energy management skills in the form of glyph of lesser energy + fire attunement, which takes up another two more skill slot. This leaves the perma with only 3 skill slots to fill out with damage skills.

At the end the perma only becomes a super tank with extremely sub par damage. Without high damage the build can really only be used for solo farm, tanking, or niche boss runs. All of which are either done by other classes effectively also, or just ain't that useful.

3 skill slots to be invincible? Sounds pretty amazingly overpowered to me.

The assassin doesn't need decent dagger damage when they have silver armor, ebon battle standard of honor and by urals hammer. Also, you should probably look into this build. Just proves that a shadow form sin can have good dagger damage.

Sure, if he specs into fire magic he has 3 skills for damage. Better yet, he can spec into nothing and get silver armor, ebon battle standard of honor and by urals hammer, which is going to be effective damage.

If it has subpar damage, tell me how UWSC works. Other than vale (which requires a necro), every other sin does their own area of UW. If a single sin can do that, it's quite obvious that it has far from subpar damage.

Fril Estelin · Jul 14, 2009, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

At the end the perma only becomes a super tank with extremely sub par damage. Without high damage the build can really only be used for solo farm, tanking, or niche boss runs. All of which are either done by other classes effectively also, or just ain't that useful.

So how do you explain the 74mins soloing of UW? http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/8703/gw166g.jpg

NOTE: it's a rhetorical question. Sliver armor+Ebon Battle is your friend.

Xenomortis · Jul 14, 2009, 09:48 AM // 09:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

There really isn't any way to add a counter to it for every area it's dominant in (read: every elite area). What do you expect ANet to do, add in massive PBAoE and well of the profane to each elite area? It's not going to happen.

3 things are potential counters to a lone SF sin.
Interrupts, Touch skills and PBAoE.

Of course the only things that can interrupt SF are from Touch skills and PBAoE. Really, that means we have 2 counters.

Touch Skills are rare and ones that are around in sufficient quantities or are dangerous are even rarer.
The AI doesn't seem to use PBAoE skills unless they'll hit more than one enemy (well, the dryder's don't use Lava Font otherwise).

Subtle things could be done though, to reduce it's effectiveness. If Rending Touch were a touch skill (not a spell), Dervs in elite areas could be given it.
Expunge enchantments is a skill I don't notice on any enemies, yet is quite capable of killing SF.
I would mention Signet of Disenchantment, but the malus on that would defang any threat the enemy who carried it would pose.

Of course, a much more obvious option would be to nerf Shadow Form itself, but people then just fall back on the next most effective option.

Farming and Speed Clears are inevitable. The most that can be done is to nerf or kill those that reach the stage of stupidity. Shadow Form will always be at that stage as long as it can be maintained with its current functionality.
I cannot think why or how ANet decided SF was a good idea when they made Factions.

Shanaeri Rynale · Jul 14, 2009, 09:49 AM // 09:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Honestly, I have no problem with overpowered builds in PvE. There always going to be there. The problem is, shadow form is just ridiculous. You're invincible. Get rid of it, and I really don't care too much about the other skills.

Sure, you could say we're out of date, but so is ANet then. They've already shown that they don;t exactly approve of what's going on by somewhat nerfing CoP. They've also said they dislike speedclears, and are looking at skills associated with it (read: shadow form).

It's simple. Get rid of shadow form, get rid of speed clears. You still have a bunch of overpowered builds, you just can't clear elite areas in under half an hour, which is retarded anyways.

Token gestures that are too little too late imho. Ursan=should never have made it out of norn territory, Cons sets, should never even been made, Cry of pain=silly skill. shadow form=even worse.

Had Anet really been against godmodes they would have acted way, way, way faster than they did in all the above cases. After all, farming and grinding is what keeps most people playing. Get rid of the ability to easily farm and you get rid of many players.

Bryant Again · Jul 14, 2009, 09:58 AM // 09:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Honestly, I have no problem with overpowered builds in PvE. There always going to be there. The problem is, shadow form is just ridiculous. You're invincible. Get rid of it, and I really don't care too much about the other skills.

How would you feel with ANet balancing the most overpowered builds? Should they be changed in a method similar to PvP, or would it be better if they stayed as is (as long as the builds aren't gamebreaking but instead just better than rest)?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shanaeri Rynale

Had Anet really been against godmodes they would have acted way, way, way faster than they did in all the above cases. After all, farming and grinding is what keeps most people playing. Get rid of the ability to easily farm and you get rid of many players.

You'd get rid of many *farmers*, and I'm not too sure if it's any bigger than the crowd dismayed by all the farming.

upier · Jul 14, 2009, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Of course the only things that can interrupt SF are from Touch skills and PBAoE. Really, that means we have 2 counters.

Just for the sake of this not being wrong - we also have a few lovely signet interrupts. Leech Signet, for instance, is even core.

UnChosen · Jul 14, 2009, 10:08 AM // 10:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

So how do you explain the 74mins soloing of UW? http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/8703/gw166g.jpg

NOTE: it's a rhetorical question. Sliver armor+Ebon Battle is your friend.

When it takes over one hour, then the time surpasses what a good guild group can do. It becomes the same category as 600/smite doing dungeon, droks run, sanctum cay run, etc. Good for showing off but unattractive to majority of players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

How would you feel with ANet balancing the most overpowered builds? Should they be changed in a method similar to PvP, or would it be better if they stayed as is (as long as the builds aren't gamebreaking but instead just better than rest)?

You'd get rid of many *farmers*, and I'm not too sure if it's any bigger than the crowd dismayed by all the farming.

And frustrated pugs / non-farming sin players, just because people tend to ignore them doesn't mean they're not there. I know alot of sins in my guild that uses shadow form mainly just to tank for his heroes, because he complain of constantly spiked to death. (Ya I know Prot Spirit + Cover, but it also would mean being forced to bring an inefficient monk hero and constant microing). Pugs uses perma to get through dungeons easier and to take pressure off less than perfect monks and other random players.

Bryant Again · Jul 14, 2009, 10:17 AM // 10:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

And frustrated pugs / non-farming sin players, just because people tend to ignore them doesn't mean they're not there. I know alot of sins in my guild that uses shadow form mainly just to tank for his heroes, because he complain of constantly spiked to death. (Ya I know Prot Spirit + Cover, but it also would mean being forced to bring an inefficient monk hero and constant microing). Pugs uses perma to get through dungeons easier and to take pressure off less than perfect monks and other random players.

If they have to rely on overpowered abilities and exploitation, then they are not good enough and they should not be seeing this content. Simple as that. If they feel the area is too tough, then they should A. revert back to Normal Mode setting or B. Try to figure out what went wrong and how to fix it, but this can be a bit difficult.

I agree partially if these players are a bit inexperienced and just want to see the area play-out. This is where I'd say that toning down the areas in Normal mode would be a good idea and the more experienced can stick in Hard Mode. But you don't make the Hard Mode the Easy mode.

I also feel that there is indeed a lot of annoyance and stress related to pug-play PvE, but this has more to do with how most of the missions are designed and thus could be fixed by fixing the *missions*, not a blanket change affecting all of PvE.

Don't know what your friend is doing wrong if he keeps getting spiked to death. I can run just fine in HM with Frenzy on my bar, it's pretty awesome. Also I'm using Sabway and *still* able to have one of my heroes bring Prot. Spirit.

arcanemacabre · Jul 14, 2009, 10:21 AM // 10:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

So what you're telling me is a skill that makes you invincible to pretty much every enemy in the game isn't overpowered?

...

There really isn't any way to add a counter to it for every area it's dominant in (read: every elite area). What do you expect ANet to do, add in massive PBAoE and well of the profane to each elite area? It's not going to happen.

To the first part: I'm agreeing with you for the most part. I mean, aside from the duration, it does the same thing as the PvP version - 'invincibility.' What's the answer to it in PvP? Bring counters, right? (or, perhaps wait for the duration to end) So, do that in PvE.

Again, the duration is different, and would probably be good to go ahead and shorten that back to the PvP version. Also, it looks like the other big culprit are the consumables. Maybe nerf those, as well - say, limit their use to once an hour like the summoning stones?

Like I said, the effect of the skill isn't really OP, I think. It is an elite, it decreases your damage, and it drops your health when it ends - all a good balance to the effect. Constantly maintainable? That is a bad thing for the elite areas, at least, and why I am all for putting those counters in just those areas to make it nigh impossible to do. You don't even need real skills to do this, make them monster skills/effects - a touch skill or shout that removes all enchantments but with a 120-second recharge so it doesn't affect normal play too much.

Avarre · Jul 14, 2009, 10:44 AM // 10:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

Yet you shown 1 sin and 1 ele. Not 2 sins.

When all else fails, challenge the semantics. Challenge them hard.

For reference, Monk/Necro teams doing all UW quests, on the first attempt, took slightly over three hours. The biggest difference is that the Mo/N team has to pull/blast its way through mobs that sin teams can just run by.

Xenomortis · Jul 14, 2009, 11:02 AM // 11:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Just for the sake of this not being wrong - we also have a few lovely signet interrupts. Leech Signet, for instance, is even core.

Gah, missed signets in that list of general counters.
I was debating adding wells in too.

Fril Estelin · Jul 14, 2009, 11:05 AM // 11:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

When it takes over one hour, then the time surpasses what a good guild group can do. It becomes the same category as 600/smite doing dungeon, droks run, sanctum cay run, etc. Good for showing off but unattractive to majority of players.

You have to think bigger than this example, look at the other ones Arkantos showed: if one sin can do that, look at what two sins can do, and just imagine what it means. SF is clearly an uber-skill that removes a significant portion of the game difficulty. And if you've been in ToA recently, you know that "UWSC" refers to this exactly.

Even if PvE balance is not the same as PvP balance, this kind of skills make it so imbalanced that there's little incentive to go beyond a very tiny part of the game mechanics.

Chieftain Heavyhand · Jul 14, 2009, 11:37 AM // 11:37

You guys make it sound like anyone can slap on a SF build and do UW in less than an hour.

These guys who are getting these insane times have gotten this down to perfection, average players can not do this, below average players will never be able to do this.

What you guys are pointing out is what all farming builds do, use certain skills to take advantage of certain areas.

There isn't a thing in this world stopping people from forming groups to do UW or another area that do not use SF sins, 600/smite teams, 55 monks or any other build.

Because the pro sin teams don't want your profession in their party has nothing to do with you and everything to do with their team build, don't want to be a team player form your own team, why do you care what others are doing. The drops from the UW chest are junk most of the time.

The "economy" be damned it is a game not the real world your character isn't going to starve to death because the economy failed in the game. The weapons/armor you can get are no more powerful than the 1k armor or collector weapons you can get for free.

You guys are using the people who are the best at using these builds to try and make it seem like anyone can load up and get these times.

Why is PVE broken? Because you guys continue to scream for nerfs, if you would have just left well enough alone things wouldn't be so broken, but in your ego trips to prove that you know so much you broke it, and continue to break it.

What killed this game was you guys squalling for nerfs, because someone could do something only you use to be able to do.

What was it I heard, Elite areas should only be for elite players, that about sums up most people's attitude about the game. If you can't play how I do or how I think things should be done then you shouldn't be playing, well buddy that right there is what killed PUGs.

There are very few players who can get these insane finish times and you guys want to take the few to take away from the many. There are less people asking for a SF nerf than are asking for the ability to bring all hero parties along, but which group will Anet listen to, the small band of screaming grievers.

You guys talk about build diversity how can that happen when everytime a new build sticks out you guys ask to have it hammered down?

Fril Estelin · Jul 14, 2009, 11:48 AM // 11:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chieftain Heavyhand

Why is PVE broken? Because you guys continue to scream for nerfs, if you would have just left well enough alone things wouldn't be so broken, but in your ego trips to prove that you know so much you broke it, and continue to break it.

I don't know who you're talking to, but I can assure you that you misunderstood most of what was said here. SF doesn't require "skill", it requires a very particular timing (which can be removed completely by consumables), keeping an eye on your skill recharges, aggro and that's pretty much it. It's no longer about the "team", it's you vs the monsters, knowing these guy can do nothing against SF.

You're actually not "playing" the game, you're using an OP feature of the game to disallow monsters to be able to kill you. And you may argue that it's fun to perfect it, sure, but it's become an industry. Industrial farming. Repetitive to death. People may enjoy the illusion of power (it may be fun experiencing SF for a while), but it doesn't mean it's good!